Intolerance

Ryoken

[General Phoenix]

I love it.

[moovok]

Too true. One rule for one, one rule for another

Nice

[General Phoenix]

You know what - we suck at debating...

[Darrell Lawrence]

*pokes Rick in the eye*

[General Phoenix]

*kicks Darrell in the nuts and steals his wallet*

Hey - this thing's empty!

[Darrell Lawrence]

Of course it's empty! No ones posting! ....oh... you mean my wallet?

[moovok]

Did I mention - it's like a desert in here

The problem in America are those christian fundamentalists.
They are so narrow-minded and backward thinking...
Most western countries already protect gay-marriages under the law, only the oldest democracy in the world seems to make no progress in that matter.

Hey, I'm a christian fundameltalist and I'm not backward minded. I'm progressive! I think women should be allowed out for an hour a day! etc!

But seriously, I am something of a fundie, but what a lot of people mistake for fundamentalism is really just human bigotry hiding under another excuse.

And I think it's ironic, personally, that you used the language of so-called fundamentalism to decry it. "The problem is those christian fundamentalists". Substitute "Those gays," "Those niggers," or "Those jews" and see how far you get in life.

Is it alright to hate one group when you're telling them not to hate another? The christians are taught, usually, that the first and most important commandment is Love. (I have to point out here that love does not equal liking, so I can love people and not like them; love them as humans that God wants to save, but not like them as people that are frankly not my cup of tea). If you do not see any love in what a christian is doing, then by definiton they are not holding to the fundamental article of their faith.

So I would advise you, as an acquaintance, don't fall in to the trap of bigotry in order to show up a bigot. You can't fight fire with fire, no matter what anyone says.

My English is not perfect, that is why my post may have sounded somewhat rude.

I know that the idea of Christianity is a very noble and good one.
The problem is that it has been perverted by men.
I can´t understand why some (let us call them) Christians say (and probably believe) that God will punish all gay people with eternal suffering in hell when we are, too, part of His creation.
Can you explain this to me?

According to the christian faith, the homosexual act is a sin. That is, sleeping with a man is a sin. Loving a man isn't a sin, but the sex bit comes under the more general sexual immorality, which is also pretty much prohibitied. We're talking about prostitution, bestiality, adultery and promiscuity as the major sexual sins. This isn't to say that once you do these things you're condemned for all eternity, but it involves a certain amount of self control...

No, the issue isn't even the physical. It's the purity of the heart. I truly don't know what to think here, since my own experiences are somewhat jumbled in this matter. Whether or not God condones a truly loving homosexual relationship, I can't know. Maybe he does. He hasn't told me. All I can do is go off what's in the bible which is what he has told us in the past, and which mentions the act as being a sin.

Now, you might think this is all just heterosexual white protestant Graham talking out of his prejudice. It isn't. I am in fact a bisexual - and this is the first time I've told anyone, so be gentle... I practice what I preach, though.

Anyway, as I said, it's about purity of the heart and soul. God wants a certain attitude in the people he takes with him to god knows where after we all die. There's some sort of incomprehensible plan that requires us to choose, consciously, to follow him or not. I actually doubt that a lot of these so-called 'fundamentalists' will see God on the other side of death; more likely they'll be right there with tax collectors and telemarketers. (this is a joke. Mostly.)

See, the thing is, God isn't required to conform to our rules. He can pick and choose who he wants to take with him and who he leaves behind. The hell that people popularly imagine to be controlled by the devil was actually supposed to be a place for that particular nasty to be punished. It isn't meant for man, as you might see when you read your bible. No, where Man goes when the world ends is to something called the "outer darkness", really just a place completely removed from contact with God. You might think that isn't so bad, but here and now we have something of a latent spiritual connection to God, whoever or whatever he might be. This is what we thrive on. Without that we become, I suppose, something less than human, but still knowing what we are. But, ultimately, we can't know what will happen after we die. It requires the faith that so many people, so many supposed christians, like to pretend they have.

[moovok]

I'm bi too, and I honestly think that God looks down on us all, knows us, like Santa would.

Spoiler if he ever existed

Sorry, put that in a spoiler tag. Didn't want to hurt a kid's feelings or anything.

Anyway, I think he decides who'll go and who'll go to hell. To be honest, I believe there is a God, I believe that I don't need to go to chuch to show my dedication, nor sell bibles at the door or force people to take a religion up, that's why we're individuals, we have the right to decide what we should do with our lives, and that's what makes us, and decides our eventually fate at the end of the day.

Desert or Heaven? Still feels like a desert in here!

And btw, I'm sure God's gonna send me to Hell, as I usually take his name in vain, usually "God in Hell!" Sorry!

For the sake of Irony he'd probably send you to heaven and then duct-tape you to a wall or something.

[General Phoenix]

Is it just me, or is there something funky with the last post here...

EDIT - Okay, it seems that the SPOILER tag is FUBAR. I'll have a look to see if I can figure out the problem.

EDIT #2 - AH HA! It seems that whoever added the SPOILER tag (I'm hoping it was Fabs, since only he and I have access to the CP) forgot to close the last TABLE tag, which messed up each post after the SPOILER was posted.

Spoiler Which means that this text shouldn't screw up the rest of the page. It also means that I am a Forum God...

[General Phoenix]

Now to jump headlong into the fray...

My problem with citing biblical text is that the bible has been translated hundreds of times, and in doing so was almost certainly edited to reflect the views of those who were in power at the time. And even after that, it is still "interpreted" differently by religious leaders in an attempt to support their current ideas.

It just seems to me that you shouldn't believe everything you read, especially when nobody can agree on how it's supposed to be read in the first place...

Of course, that's easy for me to say, since I was never raised having a certain religion fed to me.

[edited]

Never mind.......


p.s. oh, and for those that are thinking I've removed some controversial comment think again. I just decided that I wasn't interested in entering the debate anymore. I only stop by once in a blue moon and that is no way to carry on a debate.

[General Phoenix]

I do that a lot myself - I type for several minutes to create a thoughtful, informative post, then decide that it probably won't get a reply or it'll just be misinterpreted, so I delete it.

Proximo, in the Middle Age every sexual act was considered a sin - very nice
Could you give me a direct quote from your bible were it says the sexual act between two men or two women is a sin.

Jesus Christ would certainly spin in his grave if he knew what people made out of his ideas

No, there's little point in quoting chapter and verse at you. You or someone else will simply retort with the idea that it's a mistranslation, or just mis-written, or just plain wrong. In fact Jesus had little to say on the matter, but it's a good rule of thumb that where he didn't speak, then previous words from the old testament still stood. This is how his disciples and followers intepreted things and this is how we should too.

As I should have made clear before but didn't, this faith isn't meant to be so obsessed with sex. The obsession people have with sex is because of the extreme sexualisation of the world today, so it's only natural that people will start to polarise their views about it.

Mediaeval attitudes to sex can largely be traced back to the roman emperor constantine, who had funny ideas. Most western attitudes to it - and a lot of other attitudes - can be traced to the romans and greeks. It's a funny thing though... in the middle ages, very often a bride would be walking up the aisle pregnant. Some peopl ehave pointed out that this means the prohibition on sex before marriage is silly. It's actually because the wedding was just a formalisation of the marriage that had already taken place... but that's by the by.

Ultimately, this is my faith, and apparently not yours. Why should I try to lecture you on the articles of my faith when you are, whether you know it or not, setting up to try and tear them down?

Today there isn´t more sex in the world than 2000 years ago, when the founder of your faith lived.
We only speak much more freely of it.

And, I don´t try to tear down the articles of you faith, I simply have a different view of the world we live in.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Alert! Bombshell!!! Cover yer eyes!

You've been warned!!!!

...I'm a lesbian!

My name is the one women yell out at night also. I *do* exist! My name, you ask???

O. Gawd!

[moovok]

Originally Posted by General Phoenix

I do that a lot myself - I type for several minutes to create a thoughtful, informative post, then decide that it probably won't get a reply or it'll just be misinterpreted, so I delete it.

That's what he says to make himself look clever, but indeed, he can't string together a few sentenances without getting stuck :P


And you're also right (different topic now, see how I intergrate both), I think that the bible has been read and reread and altered and rephrased, and updated, changed into different languages - It feels like Chinese Whispers.

Plus, that takes me to another point. How do we learn other people's languages, if we never know what certain things are? I always wondered that. How did we learn that bonjour was hello in French, when it could be "how are you?" or "isn't it a lovely day" or "yoohoo"

Originally Posted by Warrior

Alert! Bombshell!!! Cover yer eyes!

You've been warned!!!!

...I'm a lesbian!

My name is the one women yell out at night also. I *do* exist! My name, you ask???

O. Gawd!

I knew something was wrong with that guy.....er girl...THING!!!

GP- regarding your spoiler tag, you may want to come over to CF and pull off our code. We make it so that it magically appears visible only on a mouseover. No highlighting, no click dragging involved!

Mikey- cute avatar

Originally Posted by moovok

That's what he says to make himself look clever, but indeed, he can't string together a few sentenances without getting stuck :P


And you're also right (different topic now, see how I intergrate both), I think that the bible has been read and reread and altered and rephrased, and updated, changed into different languages - It feels like Chinese Whispers.

That's why people keep making new translations. The latest is the New American Standard Version, where the authors went back to the oldest versions of all the texts they could find and did a straight translation. It's very accurate. It also contains possible alternate meanings of words.

Me, I have a fiancée with a BA in ancient languages, so I can sometimes pull out the originals and ask her for a translation.

Plus, that takes me to another point. How do we learn other people's languages, if we never know what certain things are? I always wondered that. How did we learn that bonjour was hello in French, when it could be "how are you?" or "isn't it a lovely day" or "yoohoo"

Funny you should say that. It's used for all of those things. It actually means "good day".

See, you start by pointing at a rock and saying "rock." Then they say "roche". After that it's easy...

The Midterms

BARTLET: It’s a good idea to be reminded of the awesome impact, the awesome impact… I’m sorry. You’re Dr. Jenna Jacobs, right?
JACOBS(obviously pleased to be recognized): Yes, sir!
BARTLET: It’s good to have you here.
JACOBS: Thank you!
BARTLET:…the awesome impact of the airwaves, and how that translates into the furthering of our national discussions, but obviously also how it can … how it can … Forgive me, Dr. Jacobs. Are you an M.D.?
JACOBS: A Ph.D.
BARTLET: A Ph.D.
JACOBS: Yes, sir.
BARTLET: In psychology?
JACOBS: No, sir.
BARTLET: Theology?
JACOBS: No.
BARTLET: Social work?
JACOBS: I have a Ph.D. in English Literature.
BARTLET: I’m asking ‘cause on your show people call in for advice – and you go by the name Dr. Jacobs on your show – and I didn’t know if maybe your listeners were confused by that and assumed you had advanced training in psychology, theology or health care.
JACOBS: I don’t believe they are confused, no, sir.
BARTLET: I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an “abomination!”
JACOBS: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
BARTLET: Yes it does. Leviticus!
JACOBS: 18:22.
BARTLET: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I wanted to sell my youngest daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a Georgetown Sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

(Bartlet only waits a second for a response, then plunges on.)

BARTLET: While thinking about that, can I ask another? My chief of staff, Leo McGary, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Or is it okay to call the police?

(Bartlet barely pauses to take a breath.)

BARTLET: Here’s one that’s really important, because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

(The camera zeroes in on the president.)

One last thing. While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building when the president stands, nobody sits.

(Jacobs sees that, in fact, the president is standing and she is the only one in the room sitting. After a moment, she rises, holding her tiny plate of appetizers. After the president exits, Sam Seaborn sternly approaches a thoroughly belittled Jacobs.)

SAM: I’m just … going to take that crab puff.

(Sam snatches Dr. Jacob’s crab puff, then hurries after the president.)



Ryoken

^ That is REALLY good!