Star Trek: Retribution

[tnpir4001]

@evil_genius: I think you just supplied all the help I need I was wondering if the scene as described would work.

Believe me when I tell you that the folks over at SFM were presenting wild and very un-Treklike ideas (the Fitzgerald diving into the atmosphere, Warbirds decloaking directly above the consulate building, stuff that you'd expect to see in Stargate SG-1 or Star Wars.) It was attempting to make the scene more complicated than it needed to be.

...but come to think of it, I just thought of an excellent plot twist to end the scene with that will tie in quite neatly to the rest of the story.

[evil_genius_180]

Glad I could help. (at least I think I helped )

I was just reading it and picturing it in my mind and it looked good to me. Some of that other stuff is definitely sounding very non-Trek-ish.

[tnpir4001]

@evil_genius: here's a glimpse of what I'm up against.

To give you some idea, the second officer is in command of the bridge. But I keep getting urged to show the helm officer--an ensign junior grade--backing the ship away and raising the shields on her own authority. Too much initiative for someone with not enough rank. That idea has come up four times, and been shot down each time.

And when the subject of the Ops console exploding came up, I immediately got a description of why that's a bad idea (never mind the many times explosive instrumentation has happened in canon, justified or not it's there), and increasingly contrived alternative ways to injure the Ops officer, a necessity for the next scene after this.

Needless to say, I wasn't feeling 100% confident about my idea until these "ideas" started showing up...then I realized how solid mine was by comparison. But I still wanted a second opinion to make sure this scene as scripted would pass muster. The saner crowd around here proved that it will

[evil_genius_180]

Sure, the ensign could back the ship away and raise shields on her own authority. Of course, she'd be a Chief Petty Officer by the next morning and not allowed anywhere near the bridge. I was a Private First Class (PFC) in the US Army in 2002/3 in Afghanistan and I never once said "You know what, let's just go ahead and fire on those people over there." Why? It's called chain of command. Sure, firing on those people over there may have made sense. Those people over there might have deserved being fired upon. But I wouldn't have made a call like that on my own. Now, if my Platoon Sergeant had said, "Fire on those people over there," I'd have lit them up like it was the Fourth of July. It's called waiting for orders. It's the difference between getting a medal and getting court martialed. An Ensign on the bridge of a ship where most everybody else outranks you is pretty much like being a private. You don't say anything except "Yes Sir" and you do what you're told. You let people in a higher pay grade do the thinking for you. But rank structures have never been properly portrayed in Star Trek, which is why a lot of Trekkies know nothing of rank structures. Trek writing often has ranks portrayed more like board members in a big company than a real military.

Someone on that other forum mentioned Harry Kim on Voyager, clearly not realizing that Harry Kim was a special case. He was an Ensign but his position was chief of operations. He may have had a lower rank but his position technically put him in the upper echelons of the command structure of the ship. Making a judgment call as an Ensign in the position of chief of operations is a lot different than making a judgment call as an Ensign at the conn station. It is possible in a proper rank structure to not outrank someone but to out position them, kind of like how Chief O'Brien on DS9 could order officers around. He out positioned them, even though he was a Senior Chief Petty Officer. (an enlisted rank)

Yes, consoles explode, sometimes for no apparent reason, on Star Trek. It adds drama.

I agree with you, Warbird in an atomosphere = It couldn't work, the ship is too massive. Even if it could enter the atmosphere, there's no way the cloaking device could hide a ship that large working in an atmosphere. Atmospheric turbulence, air and dust displacement and things of that nature would be a hundred times worse than they were on the Klingon BoP in Star Trek IV, which was bad enough when it was moving. Nobody could miss something that big moving through an atmosphere.

[tnpir4001]

@evil_genius: Thought you might find this interesting, I reposted your reply from here over at SFM, and this is the reply:

I agree with that post, with 1 exception: the ensign is ALONE on the bridge. No one who can and should give her orders. So either redo that part and add somebody with a higher rank on the bridge who can raise the shields, or let her show some balls and judgement and let her do it. Knowingly endangering the ship is the higher crime here.

*thinks a bit* There is a way in between: While the captain is comming towards the bridge, let the ensign contact the captain over the comm badge:
[helmsman]"Sir, i am detecting weaponsfire in orbit and on the ground, the Romulans are shooting at each other."
[captain]"Raise shields, and move us away slowly."

This post is based on two very flawed assumptions:
1. The officer who contacted Prentice is an ensign. The helmsman, in fact.
2. The ensign junior grade helmsman is alone on the bridge.

1. In fact, she's the second officer/tactical chief, Commander Hargrove.
2. Commander Hargrove is NOT alone on the bridge. What sense does that even make, deep in enemy territory and surrounded by hostile warships?

Now, Commander Hargrove does move them back to a safe distance (but no shields) once signs of trouble appear on the surface, but that's not nearly the same as the ensign at the helm taking those same actions.

[evil_genius_180]

Yeah, I'm sure there are at least a few Starfleet regulations about an Ensign (or any officer for that matter) being alone on the bridge when the ship is on active duty, especially when it's in enemy territory. In fact, we saw a number of times that the Enterprise had at least a crew of 4-5 people on the bridge at all times, with the exception of a few emergency situations (like where Q took everybody but Picard off the bridge and froze the rest of the ship and where they were hitting the quantum filaments and some of the bridge watch officers died and the turbolifts weren't working.)

It never entered my mind that you would have an Ensign alone on the bridge, I don't even know how anybody else came up with that scenario. (I'd stop watching your movie if you did something that boneheaded. ) Thus far, you've done an excellent job of portraying Starfleet as they did on the shows and that's something they'd have never done on the shows.

[Jedman67]

Originally Posted by tnpir4001

The saner crowd around here proved that it will

i'm pretty sane! ftr, i only recommended minor changes. I dont think the console should explode, because prentice is going to need to take the helm in just a few minutes. Have a pipe explode above her, or something like that. We see that kind of damage all the time on trek (tbh, in trek after a console goes up in a shower of sparks, 30 seconds later another officer takes the chair => business as usual. Shouldnt exploding consoles cause damage to, ya know, the actual console that allegedly just blew up?)

solid scene. but i dont think Rayf and Prentice should argue about what to do - its Prentices ship, but Rayfs mission, and he can order/tell the captain what to do. Arguing wastes valuable time in such a situation

[evil_genius_180]

Star Trek: Generations:

*conn console explodes, sending conn officer flying*
Riker: "Deanna, take the helm, get us out of orbit!"
*Troi takes the conn and begins flying the ship*

[Jedman67]

Originally Posted by evil_genius_180

Yeah, I'm sure there are at least a few Starfleet regulations about an Ensign (or any officer for that matter) being alone on the bridge when the ship is on active duty, especially when it's in enemy territory. In fact, we saw a number of times that the Enterprise had at least a crew of 4-5 people on the bridge at all times

for the most part; in emergency situations, you would see a couple officers at the back consoles; if someone got attacked by an exploding console, one of the floaters would take his/her position. Even the defiant - which due to its size could theoretically run on a much smaller crew - had a couple emergency spares

[Jedman67]

Originally Posted by evil_genius_180

Star Trek: Generations:

*conn console explodes, sending conn officer flying*
Riker: "Deanna, take the helm, get us out of orbit!"
*Troi takes the conn and begins flying the ship*

he didnt say "Deanna, weld a new console cover to the helm, then get us out of orbit"

Ha! new trope: No matter how many times a console explodes, killing officers and sending out lethal sparks, the console surface will always remain completely undamaged for as long as necessary

[tnpir4001]

Just thought I'd upload the narrative version of this scene for feedback before I actually kick off the process of making it. Would love to hear what all involved think!

[evil_genius_180]

I like it. I was definitely riveted reading it and picturing the characters and ships as I did. Though, of course, only those of us who have read it will know the significance of the Battle of Witch Head reference.

BTW: attack pattern Epsilon 9, eh? Nice, though you kind of wonder about how effective that one, considering the fact that Epsilon 9 was destroyed with one shot from the enemy. (Granted, the enemy was V'ger, but that's not important. )

[tnpir4001]

@evil_genius: missed the significance of attack pattern "Sierra Gulf One," didn't you?

Expressed another way, Attack Pattern Sierra Gulf One can be written as Attack Pattern SG-1.

[evil_genius_180]

Yeah, I'm not much of a Stargate fan. I have the original movie, I love it, but I didn't get into any of the TV series, so that one flew right over my head.

[Jedman67]

Originally Posted by evil_genius_180

I like it. I was definitely riveted reading it and picturing the characters and ships as I did. Though, of course, only those of us who have read it will know the significance of the Battle of Witch Head reference.

BTW: attack pattern Epsilon 9, eh? Nice, though you kind of wonder about how effective that one, considering the fact that Epsilon 9 was destroyed with one shot from the enemy. (Granted, the enemy was V'ger, but that's not important. )

Isn't 9 Epsilon Eridani the home of babylon 5?

[evil_genius_180]

Originally Posted by Jedman67

Isn't 9 Epsilon Eridani the home of babylon 5?

I don't know. I've only seen a few episodes of Babylon 5. I just know that Epsilon 9 is the Federation communications/sensor space station that intercepts the Klingon transmission and then is destroyed by V'Ger in ST:TMP.

[tnpir4001]

Babylon 5's home planet was Epsilon III.

[Jedman67]

Originally Posted by tnpir4001

Babylon 5's home planet was Babylon III.

III Epsilon Eridani. Babylon 3 was a predecessor station that got blown up by terrorists

[tnpir4001]

Alright folks, after a lengthy production hiatus, the first piece of Scene 23 is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC9B8YY4ccc

This scene is proving to be a lot more elaborate than I expected (and I expected it to be very much so from the start), so I'm going to break it down into pieces, which will be posted as they become available.

(Note: this clip features a cameo of the Romulan Bridge set built by Taranis.)

[evil_genius_180]

It's looking good so far.

[tnpir4001]

Next piece is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ0GfTX9pMw

[tnpir4001]

Next one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nIpjgTyf4I

[evil_genius_180]

It's coming together nicely. I can't wait to see the finished scene with the effects in place.

[tnpir4001]

Alright folks, here's the first 3/4 of the full scene, including material not previously seen, with all visual effects in. The last piece is still a work in progress, but hopefully it won't take nearly as long because there are fewer elaborate effects to be done.

Check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBj2u1SJ_bk

[evil_genius_180]

Nice. That's looking really cool so far.

[tnpir4001]

Alright folks, full scene is up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXjsLoJX_20

[evil_genius_180]

Nicely done, it looks great. As a huge Star Wars fan, I love the Imperial Probe Droid sound when they launch the probe at the end of the scene.

[tnpir4001]

New cut of the full movie is up, including a fresh take on the last few minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-m5JqGwUH4

[evil_genius_180]

One of these days, when I have an hour to spare, I'm going to watch the progress to date update.

[tnpir4001]

Next piece is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z9ZYMJRkKM