Where 3DG stands...

[Chris B]

Hello everyone,

as everyone knows we have recently begun to speak about 3dgladiators, our little corner on the web. I have previously added to the discussion concerning this dear matter - but now I wish to say something slightly more sophisticated.

The things I wish to say will not be pleasurable to anyone, but I feel the need to say them, as I have felt the need to say other things concerning other matters before. I hope you will bear with me here and give the things I wish to contribute to our discussion a little thought as unpleasent as they might be.

Over the last year - I daresay over the last two years - the general interest in the 3DGladiators has practically ceased to exist. After we left scifi-art.com this place was one of general concern from all sides. We were hated, cheered, loved, and at the very least talked about. This presence in every-day gossip allowed for a temporary period of fame and attraction. We enjoyed Andy Warhol's much renowned 15 minutes of fame. Unfortunately, and we can hardly disguise this fact, hide it or talk it away, we have failed to build up something that would endure for longer than those 15 minutes. This is a tough thing to swallow for all of us, but it is, in my eyes, the very truth. I had my share in this as well, being guilty myself, I wish not to point the finger at anyone, neither here nor in the following.

If you had me guess the current number of active users, I'd have to say 15, perhaps only 10. This is my personal impression and not neccessarily a correct one. However, individual opinions on member-counts usually lay far above that. Usually one thinks a forum has more active users than there actualy are. Here it might be the other way around, but does that speak for us? I doubt it.

From the lack of members, the lack of fresh material to fill the various sub-forums can easily be deduced. I don't have to be Sherlock to see that nothing can come forth if nothing is there to start from.

The idea has been aired to host contests here at 3DG. I like the idea, but let me honestly tell you, I believe the attempt will fail. There are several reasons for this. A very apparent reason is that there is noone to take part in such a contest due to the lack of an active member-base. A second also obvious reason for the idea (as good as it might sound) to fail, in my opinion, is that no company I can think of will sponsor a site that they have never heard of, let alone one that is almost dead. Why would they? You are decieved, if you think that companies will dish out sponsored prizes like nothing. Maybe it has been like that, I don't know, but it isn't like that now. As some of you mgiht know, I'm working for 3dtotal, the owner and webmaster of which is a friend. From what I know from him 3dtotal has more traffic on one day than 3dgladiators have in a year's quarter. Maybe I am decieved there, but I fear i am not. One could honestly unbiasedly say that 3dtotal is a 3d-related site with alot of attention and respect among the community. Do you think we get prizes by the dozens? Not at all. Prizes that attract many competitors are hard to come by, escpecially for a site with little ackowledgement among the community. Hard words, I know, but I beleive them to be true, else I wouldn't write them. I'm afraid I will be more harsh in the continuation of this artcile.

A site has now been put online and much hope is put into it. I have little hope myself - as if you hadn't noticed that by now...

Now, why don't I have faith? Simple, yet painful, reason: the site will not attract many (if any) users because it isn't up to current standards at all. I wish not to hurt the feelings of who worked on the site and put effort into it, free of charge, just for the passion. I'm afraid, however, that we must agree that - compared to other sites - the 3dg main site looks old-fashioned and out-dated. Take a look at the screenshots I gathered for you. They come from some of the places with more public attention.



Even on the small thumbnails, I believe it is obvious how 3dg looks different from the others. The design and layout seem to come from the late 2001. That might not sound like much but we all know that it is. The site should have looked like that when we first moved away from scifi-art. I'm sorry to be so rude, but the way the site is made now won't do us much good. A user who strolls by will leave without much of a remaining impression. He is a passionated 3D artist or wants to become one but the only thing 3d he sees on the site is the text "3d" in the header - the header which is also 2d. Well, you get the point, and i don't want to make everyone hate me by saying much more. I know I must be hurting your feelings and I honestly regret it. Graham, I believe you made the site? I'm sorry, mate.

A less sophisticated - flashy, attractive, you name it - design can be amended by great content, content that stands out of the mass like a lighthouse, attracting ppl like a lamp flies. Some of the most well-known sites on the web have awful designs and still work fine. Take eBay as an example.
What content do we have to offer? Not much, I'm afraid.

Great galleries, daily updated with top-notch content, can attract many visitors.
I know from my work at 3dtotal that tutorials are a big thing - everyone wants them they can attract masses!
Reviews can make ppl come. But book-reviews will only be possible when the printers have acknoledged and apreciate 3dg. Unfortunately I cannot write any for 3dg, even though I do so for 3dtotal (i get the books fro free as well, that's perhaps the only thing you really get these days). Better said, I can't because of 3dtotal. It'd be like cheating, as you will understand.
Daily updated news can make ppl return...
Face it, we don't have much of any of that. These are the things we have to work on first.

So, my conclusion to this ill-sounding writing is that the first thing we need is a functional website with interesting content. Only after that should we think of introducing us to companies, holding contests and so on.


To all who I have offended now, I did so because I felt because it is in order to say the truth about our current situation, not because I wanted to hurt any of you. I hope you understand that and don't hate me (just now).

Many thanks for your time and effort in reading this. Perhaps something good comes from it.

Yours,

Christian

[moovok]

I must agree with Chris, then sites, just by looking at them, are appealing to me, and I don't even do 3D Art. Maybe we need a new overhaul of everything, look, etc. Include news, new art work (front page - not a frame, having thumbnails of the 3 most recent images), new meshes (again, on the front page, thumbnails of the 3 most recent images as well). News could have a small team doing it, doing certain areas - lightwave, max, etc. (I've only learned those two). Leave contests for the time being, but have it on the "FUTURE" list, when everything else looks good.

Being a web designer myself, I have a few ideas, from what I'd like to see, but also getting a few ideas from just the thumbnails from those sites. I see a HUGE 3D Gladiator's LOGO at the top, spanning the entire top. Though! It appears there if you're browser is 800 x 600, or 1024, etc. etc. No, it doesn't grow, it just appears to be fine no matter what aspect you look at it from.

Coming down from that main logo, you have a side panel which have your option buttons (roll over - more effect), that can lead you into the forums, news, download center, art gallery.

In the middle, you have the date in groovy 3D Writing (whether images, or just normal text, I'd go with graphics first, but then you have to consider those people who can't handle a lot of graphics loading up). Underneath has the TOP 3 MESHES or RECENT MESHES, with the three images below, showing the three meshes in action, underneath each image, the date and what format (.3ds, lightwave, etc.). Underneath that, RECENT ARTWORK, showing the three greatest artwork, underneath each image, the date they were done, and the artist.

Underneath this, about five headlines of recent news titles. EG: (remember british dates, not American dates here, so it's not every 2 months we do a news item).

6/1: Lightwave Merges with Spandex!
4/1: 3D Max to get New Edition
4/1: Battlestar Galatica - Unleashed [Part 2 of a 4 Part Series]

To the right of the main screen, newest member, birthdays, login screen (if not already logged in), or Hello moovok at the top. Search button, to find certain things quicker, it'll search through the forums, news, gallery AND download center.

Now, that's only in a few minutes of thinking how to redesign 3DG.

Rome wasn't built in a day guys.

It's enough that they've already started to update the site, you can't expect it to go from what it is now to something that's going to attract hundreds of users immediately.

I think, however, something that would help, would be if maybe us the users were to mock up designs for the site and then things could be cut and pasted from them to make the final. It would help things go along faster, and with designs from several people to work from the end result will look that much better.

[moovok]

Already plan on making a sorta mock up, been drawing some designs on paper already. Problem is, the main logo, not able to do (maybe a 3D thing), but if everyone has a few ideas, we can see if we like one overall, or bits and pieces from everyone and merge them. Good idea Kakaze!

Moovok ... by all means go ahead and create the portal style site but guys don't forget that while this will make the site more attractive it will not bring in new members. At Beyond Babylon poor ole Robin sweated blood to make a high tech portal site for the place and it had no real effect on the userbase. In fact it is all but dead. As Chris has pointed out people come to a site for content and sense of community. Not for any fancy looking interfaces. A point I argued ad nauseum at 3d frontier which was ignored and now that place, once one of massive potential, is now a graveyard.

As most of you guys know I've been around this scene from very near the begining and by now I've got a pretty good idea why some places flourish and others fade away. And while the reasons may be relatively obvious it does not mean that making a successful site is easy. Especially as it is normally a several staged process.

To begin with a site normally starts with a group of individuals putting together a forum and then adding some content of some kind. Usually galleries to start with then meshes and tutorials. Now this is important because new people have to firstly have a reason to come to the site and secondly a reason to stay. Content will generally get people to come but finding reasons to stay is more complicated. Generally it's because the existing inhabitants look like they are of both similair interests and also seem like the type of people you'd like to hang out with.

Now as I'm not flush with time I'm generalising a lot here. (hense the rambling nature of this post, no time to frame it properly) As you will realise there are lots of wrinkles to the above statements. A lot of people that stay at these boards are bored, lonely kids who only want a place that will let them in. They generally have only a vague interest in 3d and are more interested in childish "insanity" type threads because those are the ones they can contribute too. The serious ones would require that they make an effort to learn in order to be of value.

Another wrinkle is that different types of content attracts different types of people. From experience mesh downloads are worthless for long term success. People flock in , such the content dry then vanish. Lets face it 95% of those meshes downloaded are never used beyond one quick load and one press of the render button. The serious people, the ones ideally the site wants to stay either only uses their own meshes or will only download occasionally the meshes that they need for their current piece of work. Galleries are good once you have built up a userbase of talented artists but unless they are of outstanding quality (ie Drakath) then it will not have a great impact. News has also been mentioned and should only be considered as a service to existing members. There are so many good news sites that no one is going to be impressed with a site just because it offers that.

That leaves tutorials and to my mind the most effective type of content. It attracts mostly those people that are relatively serious about learning or improving their 3d skills and are likely to be the type of people that would help make the forums interesting. However tutorials alone will not keep people hanging around and participating.

So in other words people will initially come to a site depending on it's content. And the type of people who come will depend on both the type and the quality of that content.

For this new site to become a community will depend on the people that stay on and participate in the forums. And those early stages define how the site will end up. If the inital stages contain too many kiddies with their cracked copies of max etc going on about slapping each other with trout then the older more serious surfers will move on without saying a word. (I've either moved on or even pulled away from some sites for this reason) After all people generally want to mix with people like them and while I like a bit of knockeround fun as much as the next 38 year old I've no interest in playing kids games. Now on the other hand if the mix is a bit better and there is a range of ages and topics etc then that might entice people to stay on.

And so it goes on from there. I daren't re-read this post or I wont submit it. To say what I'm thinking would require ten times the space and the time. Sufice to say that I agree totally with Chris and that if you are serious about ressurecting this site then you are going about it without thinking it right through. You should learn the lesson that there are already far too many site graveyards out there that had a mountain of effort put into them but not enough planning.

More on that later if it becomes deemed neccessary...

Richard.

[General Phoenix]

I'm not offended by any of this - in truth, we should have said these things a long time ago. Waiting until now to admit that this place isn't what it should be has allowed it to fall even farther into mediocrity.

That said, we have to start somewhere. Richard is right - the website is merely a container for the content. I could spend all kinds of time and money to get a flashy website online in just a few days - but what would I do with it? I need to get more content online first. That means a seemingly slow period of building the galleries and download center one image and one mesh at a time. As people discover that we've actually got a pulse again (as ChrisB noted, we were pretty popular once) then the forums will start to buzz just a little bit more, providing more images and meshes. That cycle ( Content --> New Members --> Forum Activity --> Content) is what we need to start pumping blood through 3DG's brittle and unused veins. Only when we've got something to fill our website with will I begin to work on glamorizing it.

It's not going to be quick - in fact, it may seem agonizingly slow - but as long as we get this cycle started, things will start to improve. As I type this, I am adding a couple new meshes to the download center, and over my three days off, I'll be gathering more images for the galleries. Slow and steady wins the race...

[General Phoenix]

And Richard, if you're willing to continue giving advice, I'm more than willing to listen.

[General Phoenix]

And Chris, Graham is still working on his PHP-based software for the site. What is there now is more of a placeholder. It was created solely by little ole' me, and since I don't have 3D skills, what you see is the best I could manage on short notice.

Now, despite what I said about waiting on the website design in my above post, if someone is willing to come up with some "visual gravy" to pour over the current, HTML-only version of the site, I'd certainly appreciate it - my own time is going to be spent on cooking the meat and potatoes.

Originally posted by General Phoenix
Now, despite what I said about waiting on the website design in my above post, if someone is willing to come up with some "visual gravy" to pour over the current, HTML-only version of the site, I'd certainly appreciate it - my own time is going to be spent on cooking the meat and potatoes.

How about something like this?

http://talisiorder.dnsalias.org/3dg-proto.jpg

[General Phoenix]

That's quite nice, layout-wise. With some minor adjustments, that could work very well.

However, we don't want to distract from the main theme of this thread. Can you contact me via PM or e-mail, so we can discuss this further?

Well guys my first piece of advice would be this. Stop all work on the site NOW. First off you should talk about what you really want for the site. Put together a list of goals. From that you can then decide what path you should take and that will heavily influence the look AND the functionality of the site. Any work done now on the design/coding etc could well be wasted until a properr plan is in place.

If this ressurection is going to work give it it's best chance by doing it properly. In short I'd recommend stages like this.

1. Put together a specification, raison d'etre for the site.
2. Start recruiting the people you will need to make a go of it (more on this later)
3. Now start thinking about a design/look for the new site. I'd seriously rethink the logo as well. Hell to be honest go the whole hog and think about the name as well. "3dgladiators" is a little on the cheesy side if you ask me. The name conjures up an image of a group of kids with plastic swords if you ask me :P
4. Begin gathering content.
5. Begin setting up the environment in the forums that will best attract the type of user you want.
6. When you have enough experienced users think about contests. Doing it before then just results in moist entries being amateurish and will do more harm than good in the long run.
7. This is the point where you take stock. Evaluate whether the set goals have been reached and plan the next phase.

Richard.

Originally posted by Enlightenment
How about something like this?

http://talisiorder.dnsalias.org/3dg-proto.jpg

It's nice but to be honest is still light years behind the current high tech ones in use. In fact I can point you guys towards some very cheap $10 templates available on the net that would make a much better choice.

Oh, btw, in chase you guys dont know I work as a Systems Analyst for an Internet Development company so I do this sort of stuff all day every day anyway. Some graphical work and coding but at the moment mostly consulting with our clients to structure their Internet presence.

Richard.

By the way... regarding step one.. I'd recommend that you have a REALLY good think about what you want this site to be about. Remember everything stems from that. You should try to come up with something that is different from the other sites out there. For example if you want to be just a general 3d site why would people come here when they can go to the already established cgtalk.

And to be honest I think aiming soley for the sci-fi crowd is a mistake as well. Just off the top of my head .. focusing towards something like the movie making / story telling aspect of 3d may be more of interest to outsiders. Anyhow you get the drift. Be something that people cant get elsewhere.

Richard.

Oh and as regards step two you will need to start recruiting (or plain getting to come back) some talent in the areas you want to focus in. No point trying to start a site that specialises in XXX if none of the members are anything more than beginners themselves. For example writing good tutorials is not easy. It's almost a talent in itself. Theres enough bad or mediocre tutes out there as it is.

This is course points back to point one. Choose something that you guys can do WELL. Otherwise you will just be fighting an uphill battle.

Rick, you should probably consider having a good talk with people like SeanR and Drakath and see if they are both willing to come back AND willing to make a committed effort to rebuilding the place....

but again this comes after you have determind WHAT this place is destined to be.

Richard

Way to pad the post count, Rick!

:runs:

Enlightenment, sorry mate, but I agree with Rick there...that design looks a few years old, and it's kinda cheesy too. I do like the colours. Red is a nice departure from the blue and white we have now. Maybe eventually we could have several preset colour schemes that users could use.

If more people decide to submit ideas, maybe a separate thread is in order?

[Chris B]

oh ricktu, let me shake your hand, your words are so welcome, my heart has yearned for words like these!

i completely agree with all you said and advice the following first step:

axe 90% of this forum. keep one forum for discussion on what is to happen here. keep another one for art perhaps, to allow for interim posting.
see how many ppl will take part in such a discussion about the future and planning out the new way. if there is not much response that can be taken as a dead give-away.

Yeah about the forums, there are too many of them. Look at Spacebattles...there are, what, 5 forums and I think 4 sub forums.

There's no need to have a separate forum for every possible subject, especially with such a small userbase. New forums should only be needed when there are so many posts on a topic that they push everything else off the board.

We could seriously pare the forums down to just 3 basic ones with a sub forum:

Art with WIP sub forum.
General Discussions encompassing TV and Film, Books, etc.
Support/techniques

Any announcements could be stickied in the general discussions forum for a while. Mesh release posts could be made directly in the art forum.

[General Phoenix]

I'm intrigued by something that Ricktu mentioned - the filmmaking / storytelling aspect of 3D artwork. They say that a picture is worth 1,000 words, and being a writer myself, I've often found that a certain photo or image will inspire me to write. I think perhaps the opposite may also be true - that the ideas for a series of images could come from a piece of writing.

If we were to gather the sci-fi writers at 3DG together to write a set of related short stories, then get the modellers to work together on bringing those stories to life visually, I think we'd be onto something truly unique. Both groups would be inspired by, and be an inspiration to the other group.

This would give ALL of our resident artists a way to contribute - the modellers could make the ships, planets, and cities; the 2D artists could be creating conceptual drawings for the modellers, as well as illustrating more character-driven moments; the film-makers among us could even get some friends together to shoot some live-action scenes which the Video Editors could piece together. And the stories could be kept short, or split into chapters, to make the whole project more manageable.

There would still be room for General Discussions and Non-Film Artwork, but this could be something that really sets the place apart from all the other sites. A series of real short films, complete with characters and plot development, all written, modelled, and edited by 3DG members.

I've already got several ideas for stories, as I've been working on a few screenplays set in a near-future Sci-Fi universe.

The more I think about this, the better an idea it seems. The one thing that all artists would love to do is to make a living in their artistic field - by showcasing our combined talents is this way, we could all get some exposure while making 3DG a place that people look forward to visiting.

[General Phoenix]

Take the following piece, which I wrote a few days ago, as an example. While being just a small clip of what will be a much larger work, it could inspire some very nice 3D artwork. A few skilled animators (I already have one or two in mind from around here) could really turn this into something great.

http://www.phoenixstudiosonline.com/...Homecoming.doc

(MS Word format.)

And there are several more great writers around here to be inspired by...

Originally posted by ricktu
By the way... regarding step one.. I'd recommend that you have a REALLY good think about what you want this site to be about. Remember everything stems from that. You should try to come up with something that is different from the other sites out there.

If everything is on the table, then a complete reinvention does seem to be in order.

Getting away from SF would be a good idea as this market is dying due to demographics (the average age of SF fans is rising) and a lack of interest.

There appears to be a bit of a niche to be had as an all-formats art forum. There are plenty of CG forums, plenty of photography forums, and a fair number of drawing/digital painting forums, but not that many places where all three media classes are welcome. Indeed the only large all-media art site that comes to mind is DeviantArt, which is admittedly huge, but it's not really a forum.

A renaming would be in order as '3DGladiators' reflects a topic focus that no longer exists here.

[General Phoenix]

Well, SF and fantasy will always be a part of this site, no matter what the name may or may not change to. But the change in philosophy is desperately needed - rather than just working on another Trek mesh this week (not bashing Trek - this is just an example), then making hundreds of images of it for the next year, we should be turning out a product that is unique and exciting.

3DG should be a place where writers, sketch artists, musicians (hadn't thought of them yet) and modellers can all work on creating work for an original universe that they were a part of from the beginning. And while they're at it, they just might learn a little something from each other, too.

[Chris B]

I have to disagree with setting up a place for all types of arts, 3d, 2d and whatever else, because frankly i'm afraid that this site would eventually either become a big mush like deviantart or just don't get started at all because we lack the possibility to fill the place up.

I do agree with re-thinking the whole site, the whole philosophy. it is time for 3dgladiators to evolve to something new.

thus, my opinion stands: kill everything here right now, open two new one for discussion one for art. there we can sort out what needs to be done on a nutral background without being bothered by the old bodies around us.

[skyhawk223]

Ahh, the winds of change blowing again. Episodic short stories might be a good idea, perhaps even short animated movies. Put a new episode on the homepage periodically in order to give people a reason to visit the site.

Tutorials are a BIG plus to a site. The problem is getting people to write them with a modicum of quality. I know there are a lot of new versions of the software we all know and love. It would seem to be a good time to showcase some of the new features.

It has been said before that we need to branch out, and I agree. The non-trek and indeed non sci-fi posts are refreshing, especially when quality works such a sthe recent McClaren F1 are posted.

[moovok]

You go on about short films, how about a series? Sounds stupid, I know, but listen. People love their TV shows, they write fan stuff all over the internet about their favorite characters going together, or having a huge battle, etc. RPGs are the same. Fans joining together to basically write something new, about the thing they love.

Well, how about we create a series. It'll allow the writers to WRITE, it'll allow the 3d and 2d artists to draw, and it'll allow film people to maybe make the series. Like that Stargate spoof thing, a few months back in the Film/Editing Forum. Something like that, where we use the forums to chat about storylines, etc. The artists might go "Oooo... I have this idea", draw it, show it, and then the writers go "that's exactly what I wanted". Do it like that?

Now, if you say it's a rubbish idea, that's fine. But, if you want something that's (a) different, (b) brings people together (c) gets art, writing, etc and (d) keeps the forums. This COULD be it?

[skyhawk223]

That is a good idea, as long as people are committed to it and stick with the exercise util the end. That's the hard part.

Short films and series'...

/me points everyone's attenion here: http://www.3dgladiators.net/forums/f...s=&forumid=383

[moovok]

*bows head in shame*

One failure doesn't mean it won't work! Just means it didn't work THEN...

[Chris B]

let's not start with big projects for which we don't have the personnel...

Originally posted by moovok

Well, how about we create a series. It'll allow the writers to WRITE, it'll allow the 3d and 2d artists to draw, and it'll allow film people to maybe make the series.

As Chris (kakaze) just pointed out this would not work. Creative people will only really be inspired to work on their own ideas. Trying to get people to follow a universe collectively designed will only really attract those without the imagination to create something of their own. This could only work if people had free reign to write about what took their fancy.

As for the 2d, 3d side of it then it could maybe tied in by allowing people to visualise their favourite stories. And not just in mini movies etc. It's been proven that just doesn't really work. But encouraging artists to make scenes from the stories might just ( or book covers for them if you like.)

As someone green and made of photons once said ... "be mindfull of the past... save you it can.." ... it's been proven time and time and time again that big collaborative projects just dont work. Better lots of smaller ones which only attract those truly inspired by a piece of work.

And if you guys are serious about going down the linked story/ related artwork path you're going to need to code an effective rating system. Theres a lot of really awfull amateur writers out there and there needs to be some way for the cream to rise to the top so that that is whats found first. To be honest that is another good reason to try and avoid fan stories of tvshows/ movies.... generally they are of the worst quality.

Richard.

[General Phoenix]

I already noted that the porjects we work on will be small and manageable. We're not going to try to make the Lord of the Rings trilogy here...

Also, the site won't be keyed to a specific universe - the main rule is that the projects we work on must be original (avoiding the fan-fiction curse you alluded to). In fact, we could end up with a couple of sci-fi projects, a sword-and-sorcery project, and even a spy story - each being worked on by a different team of artists and writers. In effect, we're not just going to be a 3D community anymore, but a story-telling community.

As far as failure is concerned, it won't be an option for me. While I will be contributing to some of the efforts as a writer, I will also be making sure that progress is always being made in each project - if it means bringing in new blood to work on it, that's what I'll do.

You see, I've realized that the most successful communities are those that reflect the particular skills and passions of their owners and administrators. SFM and LWG are successful because those who run it are excellent artists. As someone who has never touched a 3D program, I really have no business trying to maintain a site based solely on 3D artwork - but as a writer, and a creative person, I know that I can work WITH 3D artists and other writers to help tell a story. And as an experienced leader, I can ensure that we are always moving forward with quality projects.

I'd been thinking of doing this with my Phoenix Studios site, but the time spent working here at 3DG had kept me too busy to fully explore it. Now that it seems only a matter of time before the current incarnation of 3DG turns into a ghost town, it seems only logical to build this new community on the existing framework that we already have in place.

Look for an official "mission statement" later this evening. In the meantime, I have to dig out my old plans for Phoenix Studios...